-When was the last time they saw a male underwear model with a beer belly?
-How come the men in games look unrealistically buff?
-How come the men in games look like models that could pose for playgirl?
-How come the men in games have always seem to have "unrealistic proportions" ?
Seriously, men are just as objectified sexually.
Only difference is, a man crying foul over sexualization is not politically correct, so no one will listen even if he makes the same amount of sense as the femiextremist version.
Anon, the basice answer to all those questions in genearlly considered this: Both genders in games are modeled to the male ideal of what beauty/manliness is. it's not really like women are objectifying men in that case. Men are objectifying women and presenting their own gender as the ideal.
@anon as a humanist, I'm going to say this: we're not equal in every way.
In most studies, men are superior in math, wheras women tend to get better scores in Literature.
Consider: woman has a child. She gets a couple months off work. The boss is now losing days-months of production from one person, but is still paying. Why? She chose to have a baby. She could've aborted it or used preventative care, but instead had the child. And for years this could happen multiple times. From a business sense, a male who can't get pregnant is expected to take less time off.
Businesses also have group health insurance plans, and statistically women take advantage of it much less than men. This costs the business money.
Finally that statistic? Women make 70% of what men make? That's a miserable lie. Truth is, women get about 98% of what men get on the same job. The statistic was women getting 78% of the pay for FULL TIME JOBS of any kind. As in comparing a Doctor to a full-time Nurse. And comparing someone who worked for 10 years on the same job to someone who just started. The 70% statistic is pure nonsense because it rounds down about 8% of information and provides the bias that women aren't working in the same jobs.
Perhaps suicide is an explanation of what gender might be happier? Males kill themselves much more than women. In fact in Japan, suicide is considered their number 1 killer of men under the age of 40 and over 20. 71% of suicide deaths are from males. In America the statistic is about 66%. In Canada it's over 85% males. Why is this pattern of male suicide rate so high for males specifically?
I could go on, but I'd like to finish up by saying arguing that a media portrayal of any character should represent in the eyes of all men that females are inferior only suggests feminism is an extreme case of sexism; failing to understand that we are smart enough to differentiate between reality and fantasy is ironic, because that's what feminism does by objecting to something so pathetically insignificant and stupid as a half naked character in a videogame.
You guys have the best conversations. Especially liked the comment about the 70 cents to a dollar. Did not know that. Nice end note too.
If someone said that me, I think I'd have to do the responsible thing of throwing my keyboard out the window while screaming sexist profanities.
Honestly I'd probably just agree and keep going. Seriously, it's an accurate statement.
One of the classifications for objections basically mean treating them like trophies or a reward. Get enough points and you get to bang them. Well my game features a point based romance system. Honestly I couldn't have hit the definition on the head any harder if I tried. I could however have been extremely insulting about it. the way that TV, Movies, Anime, Manga and generally most the entertainment industry does naturally without even trying.
Remember 'Other M.'? or Team Ninja's DOA extreme beach volleyball. Oy~
I could also take out the point system but since it takes effort to play game the same issue would remain and it would just be less fun, which is kind of just retarded.
I love the conversations on here too regless. and @anon..... the one saying that both genders are portrayed to a males image of perfection... that isn't strictly true. As a matter of fact, I see the opposite on T.V. All the time. You're just not looking in the right places. Every time I see a commercial, it's about how the guy screwed up because he's just a "Dumb Male" and the "Intelligent Female" comes in with the obvious answer to the problem and saves the day. Feminism, in my opinion, is just another form of pessimism. They tend to only see the bad side. However, the fact is, Men are stereotype just as much by women, just in a different fashion. Where as guys tend to stereotype the body, girls tend to stereotype the mind. Even in this game, regless seems to be doing that, knowingly or not. Rin's a troublemaker, Ryo is a weed-smoking space case, Rin's brother is a snob, and the thief regless is a psychopathic nut-job. Where as the women... Well the women for the most part seem to be well adjusted. Lady Yin is calm and collected, Rin's mom is a hard working, self-sacrificing mother, Rin's best friend is a smart, fun loving friend, and Fai.... well, she's where that train of thought falls apart... The exception to the rule if you will. Of course the argument could be made that she's a strong, self-confident woman.
And lastly. @anon... Are you saying shapely women and buff men isn't the FEMALE image of the perfect body type as well? because if you're saying it's not, then I'mma hafta call shenanigans. And I try not to invoke the great power of shenanigans lightly.
I'm the Anon @ August 26, 2014 at 4:28 PM responding to Anon @ August 26, 2014 at 5:51 PM.
I'm obviously a gamer so most of my examples are game based. While I don't entirely disagree with all you said, I do disagree that the objectifying is one sided.
As Robert pointed out there are many other ways that men are objectified. It's been my experience that some women can be just a judgmental and brutal in their opinion of the opposite sex.
@Anon August 28, 2014 at 6:07 AM (A.K.A. @Anon August 26, 2014 at 4:28 PM) whoever you are, you just made my day. I don't care if you're a guy or a girl, you rock.
Yeah, there's a lot of of overlap between objectification and presenting the ideal, which another anon mentioned up higher. Intelligence, strength, and beauty are all desirable traits we want to see in ourselves as much as others. He's not wrong mind you, but I think girls place almost if not just as much emphasis on appearance as guys do. At least the ones I know seem too.
@Robert: Most the women seem well adjusted? Wait till you meet Demi XD... sadly not in the next chapter. Oh and I don't think the guy was asking because he disliked the girls in my game. Given the timing I'm more inclined to believe (s)he was just curious cuz of the whole zoegate thing.
Finally, laptop fritzed out. Didn't loose much.... or anything actually, but I can't really work on it at work until it's fixed. So that's a bit of a bummer. cheers gents... and ladies~
Another random question, from another anon, if you don't mind, what are you doing for music in the latter parts of this project? Will it be stuff you've found that's usable or were you planning on hiring somebody?
Actually, one random question further; if someone made you a full soundtrack so that you could replace any copyrighted materials, could you then accept donations? I'm assuming here that the reason you aren't accepting currently is that you have copyrighted music. Assuming that you couldn't accept donations even with someone having made the music, are there any further issues?
A lot of third party scripts for certain features and fixes that VX should've had but didn't, so I still wouldn't be allowed to make money on this. Thanks for the thought though.
Robert called it. I actually have dropbox already, it's what I originally used to distribute the demo. It's rather slow, downloads often don't complete properly for large files, and yeah two gigs not enough unless maybe if I compress it.
Woot! Whaddi win? Lol. I now you said you don't accept donations but do you accept gifts? Like what if we bought you a new laptop or something. Not saying "I" would but I know some people who have done that kinda thing for a friend of mine.
Regless are you using RPG maker VX or VX ACE? I'm following another game maker and he recently switched from VX to VX ACE as the ACE has a lot of bug fixes and it seems to be easier to work with, it also has an option to convert the game from VX to VX ACE
ACE lacks certain parrallel script. I've gone looking and tried convert the ones I use myself a couple times now. Cuz yeah ACE is better is damn near every way.
Harder to find than you might think. Granted I have't looked for hirees for a while now. Part of the issue seems to be lesser forms for the scripts already exist and people seem to rather work on something new than something that already exists. Hell I'd be willing to pay if I did find someone.
I don't even know if I'd be able to figure it out. It's been years since I'd tried to get into coding and got distracted away from it, but I understand enough to do it. Let me know what you need and I can see if I can wrap my head around it, but odds are low. darkXsoulXphilosopher @ yahoo _ com 'X's to spaces.
lol. Actually played that game quite a bit. But stopped shortly after that one lady died. *Won't say who for spoiler sakes.* But after all the crap everyone goes through for her and she just does that. I was very unimpressed. Seems like a martyr sue trope if ever I saw one. Shame too. Good writing and voice actings made her rather bearable despite her irresistible urge to be dumb as toast. Being self sacrificing is not inherently a bad trait but good characters does not immediately jump to offing themselves as a form of conflict resolution, nor do they give psychos the benefit of the doubt.
*Kinda big spoiler* The game allows you to download free paralogue maps by going to wifi and selecting update and in one of them she actually is found to have survived the fall, but suffered some brain damage in a very ironic way: She can now no longer make a speech more than 2-3 words long and now has amnesia.
She's a tough one to save, but she is not dead! Also, while that martyr sue scene really upset me, it wasn't quite giving him the benefit. She knew chrom would surrender the fire emblem in exchange for her life, which he would most likely take anyway, so she killed herself to spare him that option.
I say give it a few more chapters regless. You pick up tharja in that chapter who is compulsively obsessed with your Avatar. And a trap named libra [but no one uses him].
Well that's interesting. Not sure I'm a fan of her getting even more handi-capped but It's definitely more interesting that just dying. Maybe if she joined the enemy due to her amnesia and started raping the crap out of your army. Now THAT would be cool.
I do remember getting tharja. She was awesome. Really liked most the characters in that game. Even the loli dragon wasn't all that bad. Also got libra. I used the hell out of him. the scenes with that guy were hilarious.
And I do recall that she wanted to stop Chrom, but, and forgive me if I'm getting some of the details mixed up here, wasn't it her over eagerness to surrender that put Chrom in that position to begin with? I think she tried to hand herself over around three times before it finally took and she kept returning to places that were being attacked to keep the people from panicking, ignoring the fact that the people who loved her so would probably loose their crap if she died.
Other FE rulers often had to flee overwhelming battles because they knew their country needed them, thus they had to stay alive. When they inevitably return they do so with armies. That woman went back with nothing, just to coddle them. Even ordered the guard not to come with her because they'd be killed. *If you understand that WHY would you go back yourself?!* I mean her narrative painted her as wise, strong of will, and kind but her characterization was severally lacking in the first too traits, instead depicting her as foolish and stubborn.
But yes. I did get through several more chapters. *Seeing your double was very wtf* but my interest had faded substantially after that. Stupid moves like that can completely destroy a plot for me. and when I realized that characters I actually liked were all expendable I was pretty much done, unfortunately.
The first attempt on her life was an assassination attempt you and lucina prevent from the future.
The second surrender move was by maribelle who agreed to talk terms for surrender when one of the locations was being pillaged.
I know what you're saying though. The scene was absolutely dumb. She understands her life will be in danger and yet she orders no one to help her.
I remember thinking 'this is stupid.' because it really was. I thought it might be really interesting if they allowed alternate story paths to hand over the fire emblem or let chrom's sister die, but they just kept it nice and linear. But what do you mean "expendable?" No one has to die if you play it right. And to be fair, it would be pretty hard to make a chapter and story arc for the each person in the entire cast. They do give each character tons of dialogue though.
Indeed. I think I would've been okay with it if the game acknowledged she was kind of a moronic ruler, rather than some paragon of virtue we should all aspire to. I mean, look at Euphie from Code Geass. Her character was waaaaaaay worse. But the show acknowledged that fact, and even her own plan of The Specially Administrated Zone of Japan' require she give up her royal standing and probably connections with a few family members.
Yeah no one has to die, but nothing really changes if you keep them around. Your right of course about how much work it would require to do a branching storyline for every character. Still, I kind of got the feeling that anything I did, didn't really matter. Characters were important once during their intro and then never again.
I know the idea of "good" characters sacrificing themselves is stupid, but it's basically been ingrained into mainstream media. Just like the "good guys don't kill" thing in most comics. It's what made me not like Batman, and grew to hate Superman and the rest of the league. It's why I actually *liked* the latest Superman movie. It's why I like Wonder Woman. Never cared one way or the other about her until I found out she killed a guy who mind controlled Superman and said she'd have to kill him for her to free Superman. Then I hated the league for throwing her out and Superman for saying she should have killed him instead. Why? So the guy could them mind control Supergirl and start all over again?
Mainstream media has gone crazy with the whole "ideal" of what a good guy is. So I've learned to put up with it as much as I hate it. Otherwise I'd run out of stuff to watch.
Pretty much. it seems incidents of violence has caused media and censorship to go full retard. I remember back around power rangers came out some boys killed a girl they were pretending was the bad guy, all of them under ten. It was pretty stupid, but not really limited to just a kids. A woman got trampled to death trying to get her kid a tickle me Elmo doll for Christmas. So many cringe worthy happenings.
As for kill people in comics. Yeah, batman not killing is very dumb. it's kind of like built in OOC. Morality is by nature ambiguous because it's a social construct. Having some end all rule that supersedes everything removes that ambiguity and simplifies it beyond stupidity. It's a shame it's been applied to all my favorite heroes. Bats, supes, and Spidey~
Also, branching storylines are the most rewarding! Time consuming, definitely. But in the end, having all those tiny changes reflected in the story? Priceless. I'd buy that DLC any day.
I have a relative that programs in ruby I just don't think he would be very interested in this helping develop this game... sigh sucks all the fun away. I don't have XP normaly but If you switch over to vx the spriteing will be different from normal.
Excuse me does anybody else think that the "armour" Dresden had on is now attached to his skin from the "accidental fire"? I would have thought that he would have burns and pieces charred to his skin or a trauma like aversion to fire.
Yes, I 100% agree. I'm so sick of characters being super-duper friendly kindhearted nonviolently dumb!
So many shonen manga depict the main character as a pacifist who's only goal is to live in harmony and be nothing but an avatar of self-sacrificing kindness. I know people dont like the main character to be the villain, but ffs let's be reasonable here.
The batman scene where the joker put the clock up and bombs on the boats with timers attached was just dumb. Really? No one is willing to explode the other boat to save themselves? Even if they'll die? Whoopdie doo the joker didn't kill anyone because the heroic and kindhearted serial-killer-looking guy on the prison ship threw out the detonator and the guy on the other boat was too big a coward. Fuck, if I had a child on that boat with me I'd slam that detonator as fast as I could.
It's because self-sacrifice has become synonymous with goodness. A real-life big picture version of that would be with Christians and Jesus.
What people have forgotten is without a *reason* for the self-sacrifice, it's pointless, and has no meaning. Even with Jesus, he didn't *want* to be sacrificed, but did for an ultimate goal. If he wasn't required to? There'd be no crucifixion. Basically, they've taken the idea and run with it.
Ummmmmm... are we really gonna talk about religion on an H-game forum. I mean that's like having a billboard for an "adult video store" and behind it is an even bigger billboard for a church that says, "Jesus is watching you." Kinda ruins the mood...
Also. I agree to an extent. Its why I like Nightwing WAY better than batman. Nightwing is darker. Still if heroes just went around killing all willy-nilly then whats the difference between them and the villians? then wouldn't Raj-al-gul (sorry if I butchered the name) be a good guy?
Wasn't talking about religion per say... Just how the ideal of self-sacrifice is so huge that it's all over our media. Discussing religion itself? That'd be bad.
As for Raz' Al Ghoul... he doesn't just kill the bad guys. They wipe out entire cities, full of innocents. And it's not like I'm saying kill every criminal. Just the super villains. They're super villains precisely because they can't be fixed.
I think heroes killing is a great way to get into the fun parts of vigilantism. Some characters are morally grey like venom. But the joker, carnage? Okay Carnage can't be killed normally but what's the Joker's excuse. Or the Green Goblin, he's evil down to the core but killing him would effect his son harry. That's a good way to get into dealing with fallout. And of course there always the ever looming question, what if you killed someone by mistake.
I seem to recall a batman offshoot called the killing joke where batman beat the Joker and, pointed out their encounters were escalating and asked him one more time to come with him and get some professional help because 'we both know how this is going to end'. The Joker, in response, told a joke, and then was suffocated off panel. It was epic. That's the batman I love.
Green Goblin... that's where you have to walk the path of the Shura. To fulfill your objective while doing the least damage. Green Goblin affects Harry? How about how many people die because of Goblin? How many people does he affect? The one, or the many is the question there. And you have to choose. Because if you don't kill Goblin, then you chose the one. If you do, you chose the many. Either way, you are *choosing* to hurt someone. The problem I have with these "heroes" is that they pretend that as long as they can't see the results right in their faces, they aren't responsible. They won't hurt someone directly because they can't deal with the guilt. But the people they hurt indirectly? You can't get away from it if you think about it. Unless you lie to yourself about it. They can't lie to themselves about the people they see every day. But they can with the masses.
Even worse is the blatant hypocrisy the supers spout to explain why they don't kill. They say that cops and military people don't have the same options they do because they're "normal" people. So they aren't wrong to kill. Then they make a bullshit excuse that because they are "super" they have more options. It sounds nice on the top, but when you look beneath the surface... It only makes sense when you're talking about supers fighting normal people. Once it's supers VS supers... The superhero would be no more wrong in killing than the cop or the military.
It's once again a way to deny that they should just kill the enemy and be done with it. The truth is, they're *afraid*. And that makes them weak.
Well, if they were real people. The real truth is, the only way to avoid a "monster of the week" type of situation, is to keep the enemy alive. But people don't want the hero to fail and have to come back and try again over and over. They want them to win over and over. So the authors make some stupidly poor excuse for why they won't kill the bad guy. Otherwise they'd have to make new heroes and villains every time. The thing about games and movies is, it's not a TV series or a comic. There is no long running continuity to worry about. Which is why it is a lot easier to have a realistic hero who actually kills in those. My problem is when even the movie, or game, or short series that is planned to end in only 1-2 seasons still pretends that self-sacrifice, and never killing no matter what is the way to go. I don't like the other crap, so I stay away from comics in general.
My favorite hero is Shirou from an anime called "Fatestay night by Typemoon recieves" his adopted fathers dream of becoming a hero. Shirou eventually ends up killing people to achieve his dream choosing to save the life's of many over the few because you cant put a price on a life. Anyway the point that I'm trying to make is that I understand what your saying as do other people. If you want a manga called ratman is about superheros as well.
First, one reason they don't kill is self preservation. If you don't kill it makes you seem safer and more relatable. If you kill people tend to think 2 things. 1 ( oh, he/she's ok with killing, great, whats to stop them from just killing whoever they don't like. And why should they care about me then. If they can stop a villian right now why not fight him right here and not care about the colateral instead of takong them somewhere safer to fight. & 2( if he can just kill someone as powerful as that, then I must be loke an insect to them. Next thing you know the military is after them and everyone is calling them a monster. Yeah, sure, if you're superman the military isn't shit to you. But then the psychological warfare sets in. People whispering and pointing whenever you're around, the name calling, the hatred. And suddenly, just like with internet bullying, you find said hero in a bath tub with their wrists slit. (With kryptonite in supermans case. & @AnonymousSeptember 10, 2014 at 8:09 AM in that situation he clearly could and did put a price on life. He determined that the lives of the few were worth less than the lives of the many. That's pricing right there.
Well, unfortunately, they do that anyway. Superman himself says so. Numerous times. They don't trust him, partially because he's an alien. Also, in the Kingdom Come series, they *did* start killing people. The people were *happy*. The problem came in, because the comics had to give it the negative consequence. The "heroes" went too far and just started killing indiscriminately. Which is retarded. Sure, like cops, some would go too far and do just that, but for the most part, they would refrain from it as much as possible. At least, with the personalities they were given. The comics just had to keep the moral status quo of, "killing is bad".
Also, Regless? That comic strip you showed. Joker wasn't choked. If you look, the Wheeeeeeeee sound? It's a train. They both get hit by it. Just like Batman foreshadowed when he said they would kill each other.
Yeah... which tells you how bad thing would be if they DID start killing the super-villains. Also. You stated that one where they did kill was an alternate universe. That means things were different than in the main one. I.e people might react to things differently. Like why would the start loving superman if he started killing when they already haye him when he doesn't. They don't hate him because he doesn't kill people, they hatr him because they're scared of him.
F/SN is an amazing piece of work. Shirou is an incarnation of my perfect ideal hero. Archer is that ideal of a hero gone wrong. Shirou is the very paradox of a hero who tries to save everyone, but has to kill to save the many no matter how much he wishes he could save all. It is wonderfully refreshing, and I have yet to find a better piece of work with "heroes" in it. The V/N of course, not the anime since I haven't watched it at all. Anything else you could recommend?
Ok, so I did see a few clip of the anime, just not any full episodes. But when they censoerd it, and what they replaced the sex with didn't make any sense? That was bad. Couldn't watch it. Replace the sex? Fine. But put something there that logically replaces what the sex was there for! Make some *other* prana ritual. Not just an animation of a dragon or whatever. Shesh. If it was that lazily done... I couldn't imagine what else they did lazily. Play the V/N. It has voice acting, and it's easy to find a download if you don't want to buy it. I'd buy it just to support TypeMoon so they can make more stuff, but that's me. Plus the V/N is like most shows when compared to a book from what I've heard from people who have seen/played both. The V/N has *far* more info, and shows much more insight into the characters.
To finish off my earlier statement of: Also, Regless? That comic strip you showed. Joker wasn't choked. If you look, the Wheeeeeeeee sound? It's a train. They both get hit by it. Just like Batman foreshadowed when he said they would kill each other.
The rest of the foreshadowing was Batman in the second square of the first page: Maybe it all hinges on *tonight*. Maybe this is our *last chance*. If you don't *take* it, then we're locked onto a *suicide course*. *Both* of us. To the *death*.
Then you can see the train in the fourth square of the last page, which is where the light is coming from in the fifth square on that same page. Batman grabbed the Joker, and they died together.
Well, Naruto and Batman have very different personas and worlds. In Batman's world, with his persona, it comes off as dark and... Well, a good ending. For Naruto? It sucks. Naruto is the type to say, I'm gonna save you whether you like it or not! Not, If we fight for real, we'll both die. That's just way OOC for him, and it comes off as overdone.
Naruto fluctuates. He has actual emotions, where as batman stays pretty monotone. Dark, and brooding without going over the edge. So actually When Naruto does it, it's pretty in character; but when Batman does it, it comes across as OVERLY dark because he's really breaking from his personality... it really is all about how you look at it, I suppose.
Also if batman committed joint suicide with the joker, then he would kinda be a deucshe. I mean, then he's forgetting about all the other villains and crisis he's supposed to combat, and instead just focuses on his own personal hatred for the joker. That's not being a hero, that's being an idiot.
Well, it fits Batman because he can't bring himself to kill. As much as he should be able to, he can't. So if he did, he'd have to kill himself too. I agree that it's stupid, but it's the personality they gave him.
Naruto is certainly more than the "happy go lucky" guy that he appears to be on the surface. I did watch enough of the show and read enough of the manga to know that. I stopped after that point after all. But that's not what makes it OOC.
Naruto has killed before. He realizes the necessity of it, and honestly it should be a surprise that he lets *any* of his once enemies live considering it's a ninja show. But it was a kids ninja show in the beginning, so that explains that. But the point is, there is no need for him to kill himself with Sasuke. He can handle killing. He's done it before and it was no big deal. He kills when necessary. Just because Sasuke was once his friend shouldn't make him suicidal. It should hurt, yeah. It should be a difficult decision, which makes Sasuke being the main repeat enemy of Naruto make perfect sense, even if it had started as an "adult" anime just because he was trying to save his friend rather than kill him. In fact, I at first considered that statement a move in the right direction. BUT, it was shortly after that when the dead people all started coming back to life, when even Orochimaru became "redeemable" rather than an enemy who was fighting alongside them simply for survival, and then going right back to being an enemy. What Naruto said wasn't OOC to his character, until they went and made it OOC to the entire show as a whole.
Up until that point it looked like Naruto was simply maturing and was now willing to do what was necessary. Of *course* once Naruto became willing to kill Sasuke it turned out he no longer had to. That made it ham-handed. It would have worked just fine, if they did kill each other, or if Naruto survived the battle and that was the one promise he couldn't keep, saving or dying with Sasuke. But the ran away from that, and it made the entire scene a waste.
all of you, that says all the time they should kill...how many people have you guys killed? if becoming a hero was as easy as killing the bad guys, you can be heroes right away
I see your point cloud but I don't think that was Naruto saying he would commit suicide to kill Sasuke, I think that was Naruto stating that if they fought they would just end up killing each other. it was Naruto contemplating how similar the two of them were and that if things had been even just a little different they Could have just as easily been in the other's shoes.
How many Fenyx? I'm not sure. When I was in Korea and my unit was doing a convoy, our convoy was attacked. When we shot back at them, some died, some scattered. We didn't bother to count. We kept going to deliver our package. So your sarcasm is completely misplaced.
Even beyond my personal military experience, you're comparing normal people who have to worry about the law and people with superpowers who can ignore it. And if your next statement is, anything similar to "if they ignore the law..." guess what? When they chose to become vigilantes, the *already* chose to ignore the law. Because it was *necessary* or so they say. So when they pretend to not ignore the law later on, it's just hypocrisy.
no its not, because there is something called citizen arrest, at least in spain that is according to the law (and killing is not) this is not about being super or not super but about being a hero...or plainly not one goes beyond what a "normal" person would do (superpowers or not) the other doesnt like the difference between being a dirty cop and a good cop i suppose we all can be happy you dont have superpowers i wish i knew enought english to properly explain you that killing allways mess with your head in some way
That's funny. You said: I wish I knew enough English to properly explain to you that killing allways mess with your head in some way.
The funny part is, I *have* killed. So, you're going to teach me about what killing does to me? Have you ever killed? If you have no experience, then have nothing to teach, only you *beliefs* which are baseless. Killing affects people for two reasons. 1. Guilt. 2. Horror.
The guilt is obvious. They can't deal with having taken a life, no matter how justified. That's because of their morals. The horror usually comes from seeing the damage. When they see it, they can't believe that they were capable of doing such a thing. That comes from having a flawed self-image of themselves. They thought they were different from how they really are. The conflicted self-image they have, what they imagine, and what is true, causes mental distress.
I don't have either problem. I'm not going to feel guilty, unless the killing was unjustified, in which case I wouldn't have done it in the first place. As for horror, I've long ago accepted that I, like every other human on the planet, am quite capable of horrible things when my life, or the lives of those I care about; my family, or say, if I had children, and they were at risk. I realize that being a good person doesn't come from pretending I don't have a dark side. Being a good person, comes from knowing that it's there, and not giving in to those darker impulses anyway.
Now, some people would say that if you can kill and it doesn't affect you, you're a psychopath. There are two kinds of people who say that. Those who have never killed, or those who felt bad about it. Except one thing. When I see needless violence? A true psychopath who kills just because he was a little angry, or for pleasure, or some other sick reason? I hate it. I can't watch it, even in a movie where I *know* it's fake. I grimace, close my eyes, and turn away from the screen. When I tried to watch Hostel, I walked out of the theater in the very beginning when he cut that guys ankle. Wasted my money even trying to watch. On the other hand, when it's a hero killing the enemy, I don't even flinch no matter how gory.
It's not killing that messes with people's heads. It's how people *view* killing. How killing fits into their moral code. I have a different set of morals. I don't believe life is sacred; so it doesn't bother me when people kill, as long as there is a good reason for it. Defense of a life, for instance. But senseless killing? I find it hard to do that in a video game. I force myself, to get the achievement, but I hate it the whole time. And I only ever do the evil playthrough once per game. It's not fun for me. Only the good (or usually neutral) playthrough is, which is why I can play that way multiple times. I have no problem killing in real life though, when justified.
As for being happy I don't have superpowers? Well, unless you happen to be a *super villain* you don't have to worry. Unless you'd try to kill whoever killed the Joker? I realize that it's a personal decision, but I think it's wrong to defend a person like him. He has killed hundreds, thousands... but you won't kill him? What about the people he killed? What if one of their brothers or sisters or children shot the Joker? Would you put them in prison? It's easy to talk about how killing is wrong, when you're safe and protected, and others are out killing for you.
Spain has a military. It's members kill. Is there something wrong with them?
Oh man this debate has gotten massive. Well thanks everyone for keeping it civil. I'm sure some of you have strong feelings on the topic because I know I definitely do. Just wanna say, cloud, a lot of what you said makes a lot of sense of to me and matches up with what I've witnessed.
I have to agree Regless, I was honestly surprised that it stayed civil. And despite the disagreements I may have with other people's views, I have to both respect their right to have their view, and even more, respect the civility with which they argued it. This kept it at a debate, rather than degrading into something nasty, which rarely happens.
Also, my earlier points aside, most people don't have the moral code that I do. They tend to believe that killing (of humans anyway) in all forms is somehow inherently wrong. That life is sacred (except animals and plants of course, since they eat them) and thus have a problem when they kill for the first time. Now, this wasn't as big of a problem in the past when people still used swords and such, as people killed more often back then. Hell, even when guns came around, townspeople would hang men if they needed to rather than wait for the sheriff sometimes.
Killing was more accepted then, (when you had a good reason) because it was a normal part of life. So while not every character should have a breakdown after they kill someone, the idea of at least one or two of the characters we interact with having such a thing happen... could be interesting. Maybe they join the other side and betray you. Maybe they go completely nuts. Maybe they just end up an overenthusiastic killer, getting high on the power of taking another's life. Any kind of reaction would be realistic really, since people have all different kinds of reactions.
First off, Cloud, I want to thank you for your sacrifice in fighting for us in Korea. I respect you. Secondly, I personally believe in a "soul" because I am "religious". Not in the normal sense, I simply believe what I believe and don't particularly associate with any particular religion. I more believe in the statement of Marcus Aurelius.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
And I believe that killing damages the soul. Hence I believe that soldiers are noble to sacrifice that part of themselves as well as the physical loss of war.
I believe in a soul as well, in fact we have almost the same exact outlook of gods and religion. With one obvious difference based on the prior debate. As for the service part, not a problem.
Honestly, I love this job. My main job is being a computer and phone tech. Normally people in my particular job (especially for the AF) don't ever see combat even if they go to a base in or near a combat zone. They just happened to need extra people for convoy that day, and I happened to be randomly chosen. I'll probably never see actual combat again. Still, it's nice to see appreciation.
I remember how the news would talk about the Koreans wanting us out of Korea... To an extent that's true. *Some* of the younger generation (those in college or high school and those who only just got out) does, but even there from what I saw most didn't have a problem with us. But the older generation? The ones who remember the previous war? Whenever I was in uniform walking through Seoul, they would constantly stop me and thank me. They'd ask me to ignore the younger people, because even though in Korea every male is required to do two years military service, they haven't seen war. They don't know the horrors of it. The older generation agrees that if we weren't there N. Korea would attack them in a heartbeat. So they thank us for providing a deterrent from that. It's nice to see.
i wish i could debate better in this language, first of all i will tell you that killing is wrong even in the military why? i dont believe in souls, gods , sins or anything like that i believe in civilization i believe in striving to be better and in ideals every person alive is related to you in a very distant way when you kill...you are killing your people your family ok i know its your grand-grand-grand-grand cousin and you dont feel like the koreans are your family but the funny thing is that they are
one day all of us will be joined as people of the human race instead of americans, english, spanish, koreans whatever one day we will learn how to heal all sickness, even mental sickness
and thats why we have to struggle to be more civilized
and killing is not
you leave a person alive and the possibilities increase sure he could still be shit but you completely erase the possibility of someone becoming better
frankly i dont understand how you can kill people in real life, and yet you struggle to do it in a fantasy or a game
Fenyx, I respectfully requested that you e-mail me to continue this debate if you wished. It's too long, and *far* off topic as I said before. I will no longer answer you here because just taking over a blog and like this is rude. My email is public on my account. Just look at it! I made it public just so you could see it and respond there. It will stay public for a few days. Respond there, or just end it.
By this logic, whenever we have sex, we are doing it with our family. Something we should obviously not do. I do agree, we have slight blood ties, but the distance in our relationship is so vast I feel no familial connection to strangers I have not met, unless they are about 2nd cousin or closer.
Also, your idea seems so... emotional. "We should all strive to be together, not different cultures." Too idealistic, politically one sided, train of thought. Frankly we shouldn't try to be blind toward our differences or be ignorant to them. We can celebrate our differences rather than pretend we have none.
As for healing "all sicknesses." How far have you thought this through? You know everyone dies eventually right? Cancer, sickness, whatever, you're going to die, most likely from a natural cause, which is probably organ failure. Your organs will not last forever. Let's hypothetically assume your world, in which mankind has eradicated disease and organ failure, and thus, is immortal save for accidents/suicides... Does it account for the billions of people in the world and dwindling water supplies? Because our population on this planet has been increasing vastly. Giving mankind a lack of death might be more of a curse than a blessing. I know you like to live in a world of limited supplies and limitless population, but frankly I don't see how that world can exist without us all dying of thirst.
I pose a question you did not consider: If someone was about to kill you, or another person you cared about, and the only means you had to stop this person was by killing him, would you do it?
You obviously haven't thought your morals through much or read the discussion, and I will say this: there are reasons to kill. I *obviously* don't agree with casually killing someone, and I haven't killed anyone myself, but I come from a military family, where my ancestors served in WW2, on the union side of the civil war, and in the Revolutionary war. And I assure you, they had good reasons to kill.
I hope to never be put into a position where I feel killing is my only option, but I won't condemn people for killing if it's necessary for them to do so.
ok i will stop the debate too already, i cant explain myself properly anyway i will only say this to the last anonymous guy... that is the interesting thing about comics and fantasy heroes allways have other options , you, me and every other person in this planet may or may not but heroes in fiction do...because its fiction it may not feel real and you might feel its too "ideal" but in the year 1850 people though children should work in factories and today we dont think that at all (at least in first world, and 2nd world countries) someday it will be the same with killing and you will see
You do see the logical flaw in that statement though right? About the majority of people changing their stance on an ideal suddenly making us "see" that we were wrong all along?
regless understood what i meant and i said i would stop... im making an analogy between what happened in the last 150/200 years with children and work, and the ideal of "no killing" that is everywhere in comics and other ideal fantasy works
Back then, families were forced to have their children work in factories or they starved.
They didn't want to or like it, they did it because they had to.
Killing isn't the same. I don't need to kill everyday or face the threat of starving to death. Killing in comic heroes? They're against killing. Almost every one. Only villains like to kill.
Regardless, you ignored my argument wholeheartedly. Not surprising.
look i stopped debating, i told you, im just explaining previous points i made because i felt i wasnt clear enought even if we are keeping it civil, looks like cloud and other think we have hijacked the comments section so sorry if i look like i ignored your argument, i did not but i said i was gonna stop
Speaking of hijacking... did you email me? I looked in my inbox, but don't see anything. It may have gone to my spam section. If you did, can you re-send it? Just put "Regless - Killing" in the subject and I'll be able to find it.
no, i didnt... i dont think i can make you change your mind and i dont think you can change mine either, and i got mostly "defeated" in my argument the moment you said you did kill so i dont know if i should bother...its really hard for me to talk in this language and i dont think you like to read a long debate in shitty orthography and grammar
Really sorry about that. Had a couple things come up so I was out longer than I intended and then bloody exhausted when I got back. I should be able to tomorrow though. at the usual time of 4 o clock. Cheers
I'm looking forward to it :)
ReplyDeleteI watched it for about an hour before I had to go to bed.
DeleteIt's nice to see an electronic painting demonstration that isn't time lapsed.
Watched it very nice drawing dont have a profile on the site though
ReplyDeleteMORE!
ReplyDeleteWhat are you going to do if feminists say you are objectifying women?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteGenderchange version :)
DeleteHe can ask them...
Delete-When was the last time they saw a male underwear model with a beer belly?
-How come the men in games look unrealistically buff?
-How come the men in games look like models that could pose for playgirl?
-How come the men in games have always seem to have "unrealistic proportions" ?
Seriously, men are just as objectified sexually.
Only difference is, a man crying foul over sexualization is not politically correct, so no one will listen even if he makes the same amount of sense as the femiextremist version.
Anon, the basice answer to all those questions in genearlly considered this: Both genders in games are modeled to the male ideal of what beauty/manliness is. it's not really like women are objectifying men in that case. Men are objectifying women and presenting their own gender as the ideal.
Delete@anon as a humanist, I'm going to say this: we're not equal in every way.
DeleteIn most studies, men are superior in math, wheras women tend to get better scores in Literature.
Consider: woman has a child. She gets a couple months off work. The boss is now losing days-months of production from one person, but is still paying. Why? She chose to have a baby. She could've aborted it or used preventative care, but instead had the child. And for years this could happen multiple times. From a business sense, a male who can't get pregnant is expected to take less time off.
Businesses also have group health insurance plans, and statistically women take advantage of it much less than men. This costs the business money.
Finally that statistic? Women make 70% of what men make? That's a miserable lie. Truth is, women get about 98% of what men get on the same job. The statistic was women getting 78% of the pay for FULL TIME JOBS of any kind. As in comparing a Doctor to a full-time Nurse. And comparing someone who worked for 10 years on the same job to someone who just started. The 70% statistic is pure nonsense because it rounds down about 8% of information and provides the bias that women aren't working in the same jobs.
Perhaps suicide is an explanation of what gender might be happier? Males kill themselves much more than women. In fact in Japan, suicide is considered their number 1 killer of men under the age of 40 and over 20. 71% of suicide deaths are from males. In America the statistic is about 66%. In Canada it's over 85% males. Why is this pattern of male suicide rate so high for males specifically?
I could go on, but I'd like to finish up by saying arguing that a media portrayal of any character should represent in the eyes of all men that females are inferior only suggests feminism is an extreme case of sexism; failing to understand that we are smart enough to differentiate between reality and fantasy is ironic, because that's what feminism does by objecting to something so pathetically insignificant and stupid as a half naked character in a videogame.
You guys have the best conversations. Especially liked the comment about the 70 cents to a dollar. Did not know that. Nice end note too.
DeleteIf someone said that me, I think I'd have to do the responsible thing of throwing my keyboard out the window while screaming sexist profanities.
Honestly I'd probably just agree and keep going. Seriously, it's an accurate statement.
One of the classifications for objections basically mean treating them like trophies or a reward. Get enough points and you get to bang them. Well my game features a point based romance system. Honestly I couldn't have hit the definition on the head any harder if I tried. I could however have been extremely insulting about it. the way that TV, Movies, Anime, Manga and generally most the entertainment industry does naturally without even trying.
Remember 'Other M.'? or Team Ninja's DOA extreme beach volleyball. Oy~
I could also take out the point system but since it takes effort to play game the same issue would remain and it would just be less fun, which is kind of just retarded.
I love the conversations on here too regless. and @anon..... the one saying that both genders are portrayed to a males image of perfection... that isn't strictly true. As a matter of fact, I see the opposite on T.V. All the time. You're just not looking in the right places. Every time I see a commercial, it's about how the guy screwed up because he's just a "Dumb Male" and the "Intelligent Female" comes in with the obvious answer to the problem and saves the day. Feminism, in my opinion, is just another form of pessimism. They tend to only see the bad side. However, the fact is, Men are stereotype just as much by women, just in a different fashion.
DeleteWhere as guys tend to stereotype the body, girls tend to stereotype the mind. Even in this game, regless seems to be doing that, knowingly or not. Rin's a troublemaker, Ryo is a weed-smoking space case, Rin's brother is a snob, and the thief regless is a psychopathic nut-job. Where as the women... Well the women for the most part seem to be well adjusted. Lady Yin is calm and collected, Rin's mom is a hard working, self-sacrificing mother, Rin's best friend is a smart, fun loving friend, and Fai.... well, she's where that train of thought falls apart... The exception to the rule if you will. Of course the argument could be made that she's a strong, self-confident woman.
And lastly. @anon... Are you saying shapely women and buff men isn't the FEMALE image of the perfect body type as well? because if you're saying it's not, then I'mma hafta call shenanigans. And I try not to invoke the great power of shenanigans lightly.
oh... and one last thing @anon... Are you saying you'd prefer to see fat disfigured women, and hairy, bulbous, out of shape men?
DeleteSorry. I have a problem with feminist and those that agree with them.
I'm the Anon @ August 26, 2014 at 4:28 PM responding to Anon @ August 26, 2014 at 5:51 PM.
DeleteI'm obviously a gamer so most of my examples are game based. While I don't entirely disagree with all you said, I do disagree that the objectifying is one sided.
As Robert pointed out there are many other ways that men are objectified. It's been my experience that some women can be just a judgmental and brutal in their opinion of the opposite sex.
@Anon August 28, 2014 at 6:07 AM (A.K.A. @Anon August 26, 2014 at 4:28 PM) whoever you are, you just made my day. I don't care if you're a guy or a girl, you rock.
DeleteP.S. of course objectifying isn't one-sided... have you SEEN "Thor"?
DeleteI'm sorry that this is mostly non-sequitur but I feel like these is something that I just have to share.
Delete#1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diU70KshcjA&hd=1
#2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIQr_TrFTUk&hd=1
P.S. #2 verse-1 reminds me of this conversation for some reason.
Yeah, there's a lot of of overlap between objectification and presenting the ideal, which another anon mentioned up higher. Intelligence, strength, and beauty are all desirable traits we want to see in ourselves as much as others. He's not wrong mind you, but I think girls place almost if not just as much emphasis on appearance as guys do. At least the ones I know seem too.
Delete@Robert: Most the women seem well adjusted? Wait till you meet Demi XD... sadly not in the next chapter. Oh and I don't think the guy was asking because he disliked the girls in my game. Given the timing I'm more inclined to believe (s)he was just curious cuz of the whole zoegate thing.
Finally, laptop fritzed out. Didn't loose much.... or anything actually, but I can't really work on it at work until it's fixed. So that's a bit of a bummer. cheers gents... and ladies~
Another random question, from another anon, if you don't mind, what are you doing for music in the latter parts of this project? Will it be stuff you've found that's usable or were you planning on hiring somebody?
ReplyDeleteActually, one random question further; if someone made you a full soundtrack so that you could replace any copyrighted materials, could you then accept donations? I'm assuming here that the reason you aren't accepting currently is that you have copyrighted music. Assuming that you couldn't accept donations even with someone having made the music, are there any further issues?
A lot of third party scripts for certain features and fixes that VX should've had but didn't, so I still wouldn't be allowed to make money on this. Thanks for the thought though.
DeleteCorey just fix your laptop.
ReplyDeleteIm assuming he has a just a LITTLE bit more than 2 gigs
ReplyDeleteRobert called it. I actually have dropbox already, it's what I originally used to distribute the demo. It's rather slow, downloads often don't complete properly for large files, and yeah two gigs not enough unless maybe if I compress it.
ReplyDeleteWoot! Whaddi win? Lol. I now you said you don't accept donations but do you accept gifts? Like what if we bought you a new laptop or something. Not saying "I" would but I know some people who have done that kinda thing for a friend of mine.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I mean I WOULD but I simply don't have the money for that.
ReplyDeleteRegless are you using RPG maker VX or VX ACE? I'm following another game maker and he recently switched from VX to VX ACE as the ACE has a lot of bug fixes and it seems to be easier to work with, it also has an option to convert the game from VX to VX ACE
ReplyDeleteACE lacks certain parrallel script. I've gone looking and tried convert the ones I use myself a couple times now. Cuz yeah ACE is better is damn near every way.
DeleteAshame.
DeleteCouldn't you try to ask from someone with a bit more experience with conversion to take a look at your scripts?
DeleteHarder to find than you might think. Granted I have't looked for hirees for a while now. Part of the issue seems to be lesser forms for the scripts already exist and people seem to rather work on something new than something that already exists. Hell I'd be willing to pay if I did find someone.
DeleteI don't even know if I'd be able to figure it out. It's been years since I'd tried to get into coding and got distracted away from it, but I understand enough to do it. Let me know what you need and I can see if I can wrap my head around it, but odds are low.
DeletedarkXsoulXphilosopher @ yahoo _ com 'X's to spaces.
Don't worry, it's under warrenty. I'll have it back soon enough.
ReplyDeleteWell good luck with everything. Scripts can be a bitch.
ReplyDeleteYou know what game regless would love?
ReplyDeleteFire Emblem Awakening.
Why would you do that? Now he's gonna get stuck on that and not update in forever!
ReplyDelete:{
ReplyDeleteHe might get inspired to make cool stuff in game for it.. ~~
It might even help him polish his turn based strategy elements.
lol. Actually played that game quite a bit. But stopped shortly after that one lady died. *Won't say who for spoiler sakes.* But after all the crap everyone goes through for her and she just does that. I was very unimpressed. Seems like a martyr sue trope if ever I saw one. Shame too. Good writing and voice actings made her rather bearable despite her irresistible urge to be dumb as toast. Being self sacrificing is not inherently a bad trait but good characters does not immediately jump to offing themselves as a form of conflict resolution, nor do they give psychos the benefit of the doubt.
ReplyDelete*Kinda big spoiler*
ReplyDeleteThe game allows you to download free paralogue maps by going to wifi and selecting update and in one of them she actually is found to have survived the fall, but suffered some brain damage in a very ironic way: She can now no longer make a speech more than 2-3 words long and now has amnesia.
She's a tough one to save, but she is not dead! Also, while that martyr sue scene really upset me, it wasn't quite giving him the benefit. She knew chrom would surrender the fire emblem in exchange for her life, which he would most likely take anyway, so she killed herself to spare him that option.
I say give it a few more chapters regless. You pick up tharja in that chapter who is compulsively obsessed with your Avatar. And a trap named libra [but no one uses him].
Well that's interesting. Not sure I'm a fan of her getting even more handi-capped but It's definitely more interesting that just dying. Maybe if she joined the enemy due to her amnesia and started raping the crap out of your army. Now THAT would be cool.
DeleteI do remember getting tharja. She was awesome. Really liked most the characters in that game. Even the loli dragon wasn't all that bad. Also got libra. I used the hell out of him. the scenes with that guy were hilarious.
And I do recall that she wanted to stop Chrom, but, and forgive me if I'm getting some of the details mixed up here, wasn't it her over eagerness to surrender that put Chrom in that position to begin with? I think she tried to hand herself over around three times before it finally took and she kept returning to places that were being attacked to keep the people from panicking, ignoring the fact that the people who loved her so would probably loose their crap if she died.
Other FE rulers often had to flee overwhelming battles because they knew their country needed them, thus they had to stay alive. When they inevitably return they do so with armies. That woman went back with nothing, just to coddle them. Even ordered the guard not to come with her because they'd be killed. *If you understand that WHY would you go back yourself?!* I mean her narrative painted her as wise, strong of will, and kind but her characterization was severally lacking in the first too traits, instead depicting her as foolish and stubborn.
But yes. I did get through several more chapters. *Seeing your double was very wtf* but my interest had faded substantially after that. Stupid moves like that can completely destroy a plot for me. and when I realized that characters I actually liked were all expendable I was pretty much done, unfortunately.
The first attempt on her life was an assassination attempt you and lucina prevent from the future.
DeleteThe second surrender move was by maribelle who agreed to talk terms for surrender when one of the locations was being pillaged.
I know what you're saying though. The scene was absolutely dumb. She understands her life will be in danger and yet she orders no one to help her.
I remember thinking 'this is stupid.' because it really was. I thought it might be really interesting if they allowed alternate story paths to hand over the fire emblem or let chrom's sister die, but they just kept it nice and linear. But what do you mean "expendable?" No one has to die if you play it right. And to be fair, it would be pretty hard to make a chapter and story arc for the each person in the entire cast. They do give each character tons of dialogue though.
Indeed. I think I would've been okay with it if the game acknowledged she was kind of a moronic ruler, rather than some paragon of virtue we should all aspire to. I mean, look at Euphie from Code Geass. Her character was waaaaaaay worse. But the show acknowledged that fact, and even her own plan of The Specially Administrated Zone of Japan' require she give up her royal standing and probably connections with a few family members.
DeleteYeah no one has to die, but nothing really changes if you keep them around. Your right of course about how much work it would require to do a branching storyline for every character. Still, I kind of got the feeling that anything I did, didn't really matter. Characters were important once during their intro and then never again.
I know the idea of "good" characters sacrificing themselves is stupid, but it's basically been ingrained into mainstream media. Just like the "good guys don't kill" thing in most comics. It's what made me not like Batman, and grew to hate Superman and the rest of the league. It's why I actually *liked* the latest Superman movie. It's why I like Wonder Woman. Never cared one way or the other about her until I found out she killed a guy who mind controlled Superman and said she'd have to kill him for her to free Superman. Then I hated the league for throwing her out and Superman for saying she should have killed him instead. Why? So the guy could them mind control Supergirl and start all over again?
ReplyDeleteMainstream media has gone crazy with the whole "ideal" of what a good guy is. So I've learned to put up with it as much as I hate it. Otherwise I'd run out of stuff to watch.
Pretty much. it seems incidents of violence has caused media and censorship to go full retard. I remember back around power rangers came out some boys killed a girl they were pretending was the bad guy, all of them under ten. It was pretty stupid, but not really limited to just a kids. A woman got trampled to death trying to get her kid a tickle me Elmo doll for Christmas. So many cringe worthy happenings.
DeleteAs for kill people in comics. Yeah, batman not killing is very dumb. it's kind of like built in OOC. Morality is by nature ambiguous because it's a social construct. Having some end all rule that supersedes everything removes that ambiguity and simplifies it beyond stupidity. It's a shame it's been applied to all my favorite heroes. Bats, supes, and Spidey~
Also, branching storylines are the most rewarding! Time consuming, definitely. But in the end, having all those tiny changes reflected in the story? Priceless. I'd buy that DLC any day.
ReplyDeleteI have a relative that programs in ruby I just don't think he would be very interested in this helping develop this game... sigh sucks all the fun away. I don't have XP normaly but If you switch over to vx the spriteing will be different from normal.
ReplyDeleteoh look my spellings bd
ReplyDeletegrammer*
ReplyDelete(Spoilers)
ReplyDeleteExcuse me does anybody else think that the "armour" Dresden had on is now attached to his skin from the "accidental fire"? I would have thought that he would have burns and pieces charred to his skin or a trauma like aversion to fire.
^ I have no idea what you're talking about anon.
ReplyDelete@cloud
Yes, I 100% agree. I'm so sick of characters being super-duper friendly kindhearted nonviolently dumb!
So many shonen manga depict the main character as a pacifist who's only goal is to live in harmony and be nothing but an avatar of self-sacrificing kindness. I know people dont like the main character to be the villain, but ffs let's be reasonable here.
The batman scene where the joker put the clock up and bombs on the boats with timers attached was just dumb. Really? No one is willing to explode the other boat to save themselves? Even if they'll die? Whoopdie doo the joker didn't kill anyone because the heroic and kindhearted serial-killer-looking guy on the prison ship threw out the detonator and the guy on the other boat was too big a coward. Fuck, if I had a child on that boat with me I'd slam that detonator as fast as I could.
It's because self-sacrifice has become synonymous with goodness. A real-life big picture version of that would be with Christians and Jesus.
ReplyDeleteWhat people have forgotten is without a *reason* for the self-sacrifice, it's pointless, and has no meaning. Even with Jesus, he didn't *want* to be sacrificed, but did for an ultimate goal. If he wasn't required to? There'd be no crucifixion. Basically, they've taken the idea and run with it.
Ummmmmm... are we really gonna talk about religion on an H-game forum. I mean that's like having a billboard for an "adult video store" and behind it is an even bigger billboard for a church that says, "Jesus is watching you." Kinda ruins the mood...
ReplyDeleteAlso. I agree to an extent. Its why I like Nightwing WAY better than batman. Nightwing is darker. Still if heroes just went around killing all willy-nilly then whats the difference between them and the villians? then wouldn't Raj-al-gul (sorry if I butchered the name) be a good guy?
DeleteRob, that's an awful analogy.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I do agree the subject should be better off on a different forum.
@REGLESS So when's ur next stream?
Think it'll be this saturday or sunday. Might be having dinner with the family. I'll let you guys know if something changes.
DeleteIt may be an awful analogy, but it's also real. Look it up.
DeleteWhy dont u draw hentai while having family dinner???
DeleteWasn't talking about religion per say... Just how the ideal of self-sacrifice is so huge that it's all over our media. Discussing religion itself? That'd be bad.
ReplyDeleteAs for Raz' Al Ghoul... he doesn't just kill the bad guys. They wipe out entire cities, full of innocents. And it's not like I'm saying kill every criminal. Just the super villains. They're super villains precisely because they can't be fixed.
ReplyDeleteI think heroes killing is a great way to get into the fun parts of vigilantism. Some characters are morally grey like venom. But the joker, carnage? Okay Carnage can't be killed normally but what's the Joker's excuse. Or the Green Goblin, he's evil down to the core but killing him would effect his son harry. That's a good way to get into dealing with fallout. And of course there always the ever looming question, what if you killed someone by mistake.
ReplyDeleteI seem to recall a batman offshoot called the killing joke where batman beat the Joker and, pointed out their encounters were escalating and asked him one more time to come with him and get some professional help because 'we both know how this is going to end'. The Joker, in response, told a joke, and then was suffocated off panel. It was epic. That's the batman I love.
What was the joke?
DeleteIt was about two guys escaping an assylum. Kinda fitting.
Deletehttp://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2013/08/Batman-The-Killing-Joke-45.jpg
http://www.twoshotstothehead.com/core/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/the-killing-joke-03.jpg
http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2013/08/Batman-The-Killing-Joke-47.jpg
Green Goblin... that's where you have to walk the path of the Shura. To fulfill your objective while doing the least damage. Green Goblin affects Harry? How about how many people die because of Goblin? How many people does he affect? The one, or the many is the question there. And you have to choose. Because if you don't kill Goblin, then you chose the one. If you do, you chose the many. Either way, you are *choosing* to hurt someone. The problem I have with these "heroes" is that they pretend that as long as they can't see the results right in their faces, they aren't responsible. They won't hurt someone directly because they can't deal with the guilt. But the people they hurt indirectly? You can't get away from it if you think about it. Unless you lie to yourself about it. They can't lie to themselves about the people they see every day. But they can with the masses.
DeleteEven worse is the blatant hypocrisy the supers spout to explain why they don't kill. They say that cops and military people don't have the same options they do because they're "normal" people. So they aren't wrong to kill. Then they make a bullshit excuse that because they are "super" they have more options. It sounds nice on the top, but when you look beneath the surface... It only makes sense when you're talking about supers fighting normal people. Once it's supers VS supers... The superhero would be no more wrong in killing than the cop or the military.
It's once again a way to deny that they should just kill the enemy and be done with it. The truth is, they're *afraid*. And that makes them weak.
Well, if they were real people. The real truth is, the only way to avoid a "monster of the week" type of situation, is to keep the enemy alive. But people don't want the hero to fail and have to come back and try again over and over. They want them to win over and over. So the authors make some stupidly poor excuse for why they won't kill the bad guy. Otherwise they'd have to make new heroes and villains every time. The thing about games and movies is, it's not a TV series or a comic. There is no long running continuity to worry about. Which is why it is a lot easier to have a realistic hero who actually kills in those. My problem is when even the movie, or game, or short series that is planned to end in only 1-2 seasons still pretends that self-sacrifice, and never killing no matter what is the way to go. I don't like the other crap, so I stay away from comics in general.
DeleteMy favorite hero is Shirou from an anime called "Fatestay night by Typemoon recieves" his adopted fathers dream of becoming a hero. Shirou eventually ends up killing people to achieve his dream choosing to save the life's of many over the few because you cant put a price on a life. Anyway the point that I'm trying to make is that I understand what your saying as do other people.
DeleteIf you want a manga called ratman is about superheros as well.
First, one reason they don't kill is self preservation. If you don't kill it makes you seem safer and more relatable. If you kill people tend to think 2 things. 1 ( oh, he/she's ok with killing, great, whats to stop them from just killing whoever they don't like. And why should they care about me then. If they can stop a villian right now why not fight him right here and not care about the colateral instead of takong them somewhere safer to fight. & 2( if he can just kill someone as powerful as that, then I must be loke an insect to them. Next thing you know the military is after them and everyone is calling them a monster. Yeah, sure, if you're superman the military isn't shit to you. But then the psychological warfare sets in. People whispering and pointing whenever you're around, the name calling, the hatred. And suddenly, just like with internet bullying, you find said hero in a bath tub with their wrists slit. (With kryptonite in supermans case.
Delete& @AnonymousSeptember 10, 2014 at 8:09 AM
in that situation he clearly could and did put a price on life. He determined that the lives of the few were worth less than the lives of the many. That's pricing right there.
Well, unfortunately, they do that anyway. Superman himself says so. Numerous times. They don't trust him, partially because he's an alien. Also, in the Kingdom Come series, they *did* start killing people. The people were *happy*. The problem came in, because the comics had to give it the negative consequence. The "heroes" went too far and just started killing indiscriminately. Which is retarded. Sure, like cops, some would go too far and do just that, but for the most part, they would refrain from it as much as possible. At least, with the personalities they were given. The comics just had to keep the moral status quo of, "killing is bad".
DeleteAlso, Regless? That comic strip you showed. Joker wasn't choked. If you look, the Wheeeeeeeee sound? It's a train. They both get hit by it. Just like Batman foreshadowed when he said they would kill each other.
Yeah... which tells you how bad thing would be if they DID start killing the super-villains. Also. You stated that one where they did kill was an alternate universe. That means things were different than in the main one. I.e people might react to things differently. Like why would the start loving superman if he started killing when they already haye him when he doesn't. They don't hate him because he doesn't kill people, they hatr him because they're scared of him.
DeleteOh... my bad. Damn that's a rough way to go. Quite a few train injuries where I work. *shudder*
DeleteAnd AnonymousSeptember 10, 2014 at 8:09 AM?
ReplyDeleteF/SN is an amazing piece of work. Shirou is an incarnation of my perfect ideal hero. Archer is that ideal of a hero gone wrong. Shirou is the very paradox of a hero who tries to save everyone, but has to kill to save the many no matter how much he wishes he could save all. It is wonderfully refreshing, and I have yet to find a better piece of work with "heroes" in it. The V/N of course, not the anime since I haven't watched it at all. Anything else you could recommend?
Ok, so I did see a few clip of the anime, just not any full episodes. But when they censoerd it, and what they replaced the sex with didn't make any sense? That was bad. Couldn't watch it. Replace the sex? Fine. But put something there that logically replaces what the sex was there for! Make some *other* prana ritual. Not just an animation of a dragon or whatever. Shesh. If it was that lazily done... I couldn't imagine what else they did lazily. Play the V/N. It has voice acting, and it's easy to find a download if you don't want to buy it. I'd buy it just to support TypeMoon so they can make more stuff, but that's me. Plus the V/N is like most shows when compared to a book from what I've heard from people who have seen/played both. The V/N has *far* more info, and shows much more insight into the characters.
DeleteAkumetsu, Gantz, Guilty crown have heros, if you want good animation try Fate/zero, if you want a good story try .hack roots
DeleteRegless -
ReplyDeleteTo finish off my earlier statement of: Also, Regless? That comic strip you showed. Joker wasn't choked. If you look, the Wheeeeeeeee sound? It's a train. They both get hit by it. Just like Batman foreshadowed when he said they would kill each other.
The rest of the foreshadowing was Batman in the second square of the first page: Maybe it all hinges on *tonight*. Maybe this is our *last chance*. If you don't *take* it, then we're locked onto a *suicide course*. *Both* of us. To the *death*.
Then you can see the train in the fourth square of the last page, which is where the light is coming from in the fifth square on that same page. Batman grabbed the Joker, and they died together.
Wow, that's dark... even for batman... not (surprisingly) for Naruto. He gives the same sort of speech. Although you guys already stated you hate it.
ReplyDeleteWell, Naruto and Batman have very different personas and worlds. In Batman's world, with his persona, it comes off as dark and... Well, a good ending. For Naruto? It sucks. Naruto is the type to say, I'm gonna save you whether you like it or not! Not, If we fight for real, we'll both die. That's just way OOC for him, and it comes off as overdone.
DeleteIronicly when naruto says that to Sasuke in the show, at least to me, it comes off as quite serious. As if to show the person he truly is underneath.
DeleteNaruto fluctuates. He has actual emotions, where as batman stays pretty monotone. Dark, and brooding without going over the edge. So actually When Naruto does it, it's pretty in character; but when Batman does it, it comes across as OVERLY dark because he's really breaking from his personality... it really is all about how you look at it, I suppose.
DeleteAlso if batman committed joint suicide with the joker, then he would kinda be a deucshe. I mean, then he's forgetting about all the other villains and crisis he's supposed to combat, and instead just focuses on his own personal hatred for the joker. That's not being a hero, that's being an idiot.
DeleteWell, it fits Batman because he can't bring himself to kill. As much as he should be able to, he can't. So if he did, he'd have to kill himself too. I agree that it's stupid, but it's the personality they gave him.
DeleteNaruto is certainly more than the "happy go lucky" guy that he appears to be on the surface. I did watch enough of the show and read enough of the manga to know that. I stopped after that point after all. But that's not what makes it OOC.
Naruto has killed before. He realizes the necessity of it, and honestly it should be a surprise that he lets *any* of his once enemies live considering it's a ninja show. But it was a kids ninja show in the beginning, so that explains that. But the point is, there is no need for him to kill himself with Sasuke. He can handle killing. He's done it before and it was no big deal. He kills when necessary. Just because Sasuke was once his friend shouldn't make him suicidal. It should hurt, yeah. It should be a difficult decision, which makes Sasuke being the main repeat enemy of Naruto make perfect sense, even if it had started as an "adult" anime just because he was trying to save his friend rather than kill him. In fact, I at first considered that statement a move in the right direction. BUT, it was shortly after that when the dead people all started coming back to life, when even Orochimaru became "redeemable" rather than an enemy who was fighting alongside them simply for survival, and then going right back to being an enemy. What Naruto said wasn't OOC to his character, until they went and made it OOC to the entire show as a whole.
Up until that point it looked like Naruto was simply maturing and was now willing to do what was necessary. Of *course* once Naruto became willing to kill Sasuke it turned out he no longer had to. That made it ham-handed. It would have worked just fine, if they did kill each other, or if Naruto survived the battle and that was the one promise he couldn't keep, saving or dying with Sasuke. But the ran away from that, and it made the entire scene a waste.
all of you, that says all the time they should kill...how many people have you guys killed?
Deleteif becoming a hero was as easy as killing the bad guys, you can be heroes right away
I see your point cloud but I don't think that was Naruto saying he would commit suicide to kill Sasuke, I think that was Naruto stating that if they fought they would just end up killing each other. it was Naruto contemplating how similar the two of them were and that if things had been even just a little different they Could have just as easily been in the other's shoes.
DeleteHow many Fenyx? I'm not sure. When I was in Korea and my unit was doing a convoy, our convoy was attacked. When we shot back at them, some died, some scattered. We didn't bother to count. We kept going to deliver our package. So your sarcasm is completely misplaced.
DeleteEven beyond my personal military experience, you're comparing normal people who have to worry about the law and people with superpowers who can ignore it. And if your next statement is, anything similar to "if they ignore the law..." guess what? When they chose to become vigilantes, the *already* chose to ignore the law. Because it was *necessary* or so they say. So when they pretend to not ignore the law later on, it's just hypocrisy.
no its not, because there is something called citizen arrest, at least in spain that is according to the law (and killing is not)
Deletethis is not about being super or not super but about being a hero...or plainly not
one goes beyond what a "normal" person would do (superpowers or not) the other doesnt like the difference between being a dirty cop and a good cop
i suppose we all can be happy you dont have superpowers
i wish i knew enought english to properly explain you that killing allways mess with your head in some way
That's funny. You said: I wish I knew enough English to properly explain to you that killing allways mess with your head in some way.
DeleteThe funny part is, I *have* killed. So, you're going to teach me about what killing does to me? Have you ever killed? If you have no experience, then have nothing to teach, only you *beliefs* which are baseless. Killing affects people for two reasons. 1. Guilt. 2. Horror.
The guilt is obvious. They can't deal with having taken a life, no matter how justified. That's because of their morals. The horror usually comes from seeing the damage. When they see it, they can't believe that they were capable of doing such a thing. That comes from having a flawed self-image of themselves. They thought they were different from how they really are. The conflicted self-image they have, what they imagine, and what is true, causes mental distress.
I don't have either problem. I'm not going to feel guilty, unless the killing was unjustified, in which case I wouldn't have done it in the first place. As for horror, I've long ago accepted that I, like every other human on the planet, am quite capable of horrible things when my life, or the lives of those I care about; my family, or say, if I had children, and they were at risk. I realize that being a good person doesn't come from pretending I don't have a dark side. Being a good person, comes from knowing that it's there, and not giving in to those darker impulses anyway.
Now, some people would say that if you can kill and it doesn't affect you, you're a psychopath. There are two kinds of people who say that. Those who have never killed, or those who felt bad about it. Except one thing. When I see needless violence? A true psychopath who kills just because he was a little angry, or for pleasure, or some other sick reason? I hate it. I can't watch it, even in a movie where I *know* it's fake. I grimace, close my eyes, and turn away from the screen. When I tried to watch Hostel, I walked out of the theater in the very beginning when he cut that guys ankle. Wasted my money even trying to watch. On the other hand, when it's a hero killing the enemy, I don't even flinch no matter how gory.
It's not killing that messes with people's heads. It's how people *view* killing. How killing fits into their moral code. I have a different set of morals. I don't believe life is sacred; so it doesn't bother me when people kill, as long as there is a good reason for it. Defense of a life, for instance. But senseless killing? I find it hard to do that in a video game. I force myself, to get the achievement, but I hate it the whole time. And I only ever do the evil playthrough once per game. It's not fun for me. Only the good (or usually neutral) playthrough is, which is why I can play that way multiple times. I have no problem killing in real life though, when justified.
As for being happy I don't have superpowers? Well, unless you happen to be a *super villain* you don't have to worry. Unless you'd try to kill whoever killed the Joker? I realize that it's a personal decision, but I think it's wrong to defend a person like him. He has killed hundreds, thousands... but you won't kill him? What about the people he killed? What if one of their brothers or sisters or children shot the Joker? Would you put them in prison? It's easy to talk about how killing is wrong, when you're safe and protected, and others are out killing for you.
Spain has a military. It's members kill. Is there something wrong with them?
Actually... this debate has grown lengthy, and if now *very* far off topic. If you wish to continue, e-mail me.
DeleteOh man this debate has gotten massive. Well thanks everyone for keeping it civil. I'm sure some of you have strong feelings on the topic because I know I definitely do. Just wanna say, cloud, a lot of what you said makes a lot of sense of to me and matches up with what I've witnessed.
DeleteI have to agree Regless, I was honestly surprised that it stayed civil. And despite the disagreements I may have with other people's views, I have to both respect their right to have their view, and even more, respect the civility with which they argued it. This kept it at a debate, rather than degrading into something nasty, which rarely happens.
ReplyDeleteAlso, my earlier points aside, most people don't have the moral code that I do. They tend to believe that killing (of humans anyway) in all forms is somehow inherently wrong. That life is sacred (except animals and plants of course, since they eat them) and thus have a problem when they kill for the first time. Now, this wasn't as big of a problem in the past when people still used swords and such, as people killed more often back then. Hell, even when guns came around, townspeople would hang men if they needed to rather than wait for the sheriff sometimes.
ReplyDeleteKilling was more accepted then, (when you had a good reason) because it was a normal part of life. So while not every character should have a breakdown after they kill someone, the idea of at least one or two of the characters we interact with having such a thing happen... could be interesting. Maybe they join the other side and betray you. Maybe they go completely nuts. Maybe they just end up an overenthusiastic killer, getting high on the power of taking another's life. Any kind of reaction would be realistic really, since people have all different kinds of reactions.
First off, Cloud, I want to thank you for your sacrifice in fighting for us in Korea. I respect you.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I personally believe in a "soul" because I am "religious". Not in the normal sense, I simply believe what I believe and don't particularly associate with any particular religion. I more believe in the statement of Marcus Aurelius.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
And I believe that killing damages the soul. Hence I believe that soldiers are noble to sacrifice that part of themselves as well as the physical loss of war.
DeleteI believe in a soul as well, in fact we have almost the same exact outlook of gods and religion. With one obvious difference based on the prior debate. As for the service part, not a problem.
DeleteHonestly, I love this job. My main job is being a computer and phone tech. Normally people in my particular job (especially for the AF) don't ever see combat even if they go to a base in or near a combat zone. They just happened to need extra people for convoy that day, and I happened to be randomly chosen. I'll probably never see actual combat again. Still, it's nice to see appreciation.
I remember how the news would talk about the Koreans wanting us out of Korea... To an extent that's true. *Some* of the younger generation (those in college or high school and those who only just got out) does, but even there from what I saw most didn't have a problem with us. But the older generation? The ones who remember the previous war? Whenever I was in uniform walking through Seoul, they would constantly stop me and thank me. They'd ask me to ignore the younger people, because even though in Korea every male is required to do two years military service, they haven't seen war. They don't know the horrors of it. The older generation agrees that if we weren't there N. Korea would attack them in a heartbeat. So they thank us for providing a deterrent from that. It's nice to see.
i wish i could debate better in this language,
ReplyDeletefirst of all i will tell you that killing is wrong even in the military
why?
i dont believe in souls, gods , sins or anything like that
i believe in civilization
i believe in striving to be better
and in ideals
every person alive is related to you in a very distant way
when you kill...you are killing your people
your family
ok i know its your grand-grand-grand-grand cousin
and you dont feel like the koreans are your family
but the funny thing is that they are
one day all of us will be joined as people of the human race instead of americans, english, spanish, koreans whatever
one day we will learn how to heal all sickness, even mental sickness
and thats why we have to struggle to be more civilized
and killing is not
you leave a person alive and the possibilities increase
sure he could still be shit
but you completely erase the possibility of someone becoming better
frankly i dont understand how you can kill people in real life, and yet you struggle to do it in a fantasy or a game
... everyone lets just move on end of discussion. This conversation will lead to us climbing a hill of swords.
DeleteFenyx, I respectfully requested that you e-mail me to continue this debate if you wished. It's too long, and *far* off topic as I said before. I will no longer answer you here because just taking over a blog and like this is rude. My email is public on my account. Just look at it! I made it public just so you could see it and respond there. It will stay public for a few days. Respond there, or just end it.
DeleteBy this logic, whenever we have sex, we are doing it with our family. Something we should obviously not do. I do agree, we have slight blood ties, but the distance in our relationship is so vast I feel no familial connection to strangers I have not met, unless they are about 2nd cousin or closer.
DeleteAlso, your idea seems so... emotional. "We should all strive to be together, not different cultures." Too idealistic, politically one sided, train of thought. Frankly we shouldn't try to be blind toward our differences or be ignorant to them. We can celebrate our differences rather than pretend we have none.
As for healing "all sicknesses." How far have you thought this through? You know everyone dies eventually right? Cancer, sickness, whatever, you're going to die, most likely from a natural cause, which is probably organ failure. Your organs will not last forever. Let's hypothetically assume your world, in which mankind has eradicated disease and organ failure, and thus, is immortal save for accidents/suicides... Does it account for the billions of people in the world and dwindling water supplies? Because our population on this planet has been increasing vastly. Giving mankind a lack of death might be more of a curse than a blessing. I know you like to live in a world of limited supplies and limitless population, but frankly I don't see how that world can exist without us all dying of thirst.
I pose a question you did not consider: If someone was about to kill you, or another person you cared about, and the only means you had to stop this person was by killing him, would you do it?
You obviously haven't thought your morals through much or read the discussion, and I will say this: there are reasons to kill. I *obviously* don't agree with casually killing someone, and I haven't killed anyone myself, but I come from a military family, where my ancestors served in WW2, on the union side of the civil war, and in the Revolutionary war. And I assure you, they had good reasons to kill.
I hope to never be put into a position where I feel killing is my only option, but I won't condemn people for killing if it's necessary for them to do so.
troll...
Deleteok i will stop the debate too already, i cant explain myself properly anyway
ReplyDeletei will only say this to the last anonymous guy... that is the interesting thing about comics and fantasy
heroes allways have other options , you, me and every other person in this planet may or may not but heroes in fiction do...because its fiction
it may not feel real and you might feel its too "ideal"
but in the year 1850 people though children should work in factories and today we dont think that at all (at least in first world, and 2nd world countries) someday it will be the same with killing and you will see
You... completely ignored my every point...
DeleteWhat do children working in factories have to do with this debate???
Seems he was trying to make the point the civil morality sways wildly throughout generations. I can appreciate that.
DeleteYou do see the logical flaw in that statement though right? About the majority of people changing their stance on an ideal suddenly making us "see" that we were wrong all along?
Deleteregless understood what i meant and i said i would stop... im making an analogy between what happened in the last 150/200 years with children and work, and the ideal of "no killing" that is everywhere in comics and other ideal fantasy works
DeleteThe analogy is terrible.
DeleteBack then, families were forced to have their children work in factories or they starved.
They didn't want to or like it, they did it because they had to.
Killing isn't the same. I don't need to kill everyday or face the threat of starving to death. Killing in comic heroes? They're against killing. Almost every one. Only villains like to kill.
Regardless, you ignored my argument wholeheartedly. Not surprising.
look i stopped debating, i told you, im just explaining previous points i made because i felt i wasnt clear enought
Deleteeven if we are keeping it civil, looks like cloud and other think we have hijacked the comments section
so sorry if i look like i ignored your argument, i did not but i said i was gonna stop
Speaking of hijacking... did you email me? I looked in my inbox, but don't see anything. It may have gone to my spam section. If you did, can you re-send it? Just put "Regless - Killing" in the subject and I'll be able to find it.
Deleteno, i didnt... i dont think i can make you change your mind and i dont think you can change mine either, and i got mostly "defeated" in my argument the moment you said you did kill so i dont know if i should bother...its really hard for me to talk in this language
Deleteand i dont think you like to read a long debate in shitty orthography and grammar
Can we get to 100 comments before Regless sets up another stream or posts another regular update?
ReplyDelete@regless you said you might stream today but you did not. :(
Deleteyou streamin sunday?
Really sorry about that. Had a couple things come up so I was out longer than I intended and then bloody exhausted when I got back. I should be able to tomorrow though. at the usual time of 4 o clock. Cheers
Delete